Starbucks conversation between Preterists

Sat, 07/12/2008 - 23:00 — John@HeavenlyJe...

Hey, John, how are you doing?

Good, good, delighted to be here with you.

Well, very good, then, first off we want to know what does "Preterist" mean? What does it signify? Where does it come from?

Fine, well, we can look in Webster's Dictionary under the word "Preterism" or "Preterist"

"Preterism:" Preterist

\Pret"er*ist\, n. [Pref. preter- + -ist.]

1. One whose chief interest is in the past; one who regards the past with most pleasure or favor.

2. (Theologically speaking) One who believes the prophecies of the Apocalypse to have been already fulfilled. --Farrar.

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

And we could say for the purpose of this discussion here tonight, "One who believes that ALL of the the prophecies of ALL of the Bible have already been fulfilled - not just some.

Very good. And there are many names, right?, for "Preterist." We could say, "Completed Eschatology" or "Realized Eschatology" to point out that there is a victory of Christ.

Exactly. In this wise we recognise that "Preterist" means "past." And "Preterism" has come to represent the realization that the Bible's prophesies were fulfilled in history, in the past - not to be fulfilled in our future. That the first generation of Christians -the same people who saw Jesus minister and go away- are the very one's who experienced His Return, as well, around 70ad, when the last Levitical temple was destroyed in ancient Jerusalem. And, as you said, this eschatological position is recognised by various names. It is popularly called simply, "Preterism," other labels are "Covenant Eschatology," "Fulfilled Eschatology," "Realized Eschatology," "Full Preterism," "Consistent Preterism," among others. The detractors of this position tend to call it "Hyper-Preterism," "Himeneanism," "Neo-Himeneanism," and other things. In the end, though, the important things are not the labels applied to a position, but the foundations used to support it. [This paragraph borrowed from Alex Rodriguez].

Yes, yes.

Well, then, how did you come to hold and come to agree with this Preterist perspective, Rene?

Well, its that, one day my husband told me that he had learned a new view, a new perspective that I had never heard. And after telling me some very important verses, I came to realize that it was true. For example, there are many words and many phrases in the New Testament that tell us that what was to happen, was to happen in that era, that age during the 1st century, when the Temple fell. For example, the Word speaks of "the last days," this was in Acts 2:15-17. Also, in 1 John 2:18, it says already that, "it is the last hour." In Matthew 24:33 "So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near — at the doors!" And He was talking to the Disciples. En Hebrews 8:13 it says it, "is ready to vanish away." Also, in Revelation 1:3, it says, "The time is near." And so I was studying and studying, studying. And I came to realize that the Disciples, the writers of the Bible were saying that everything was going to happen quickly in their times, during their era, their age. There is not going to pass 2,000 years before arriving at the hour in which the Lord is going to come; but that Christ is going to arrive IN THEIR TIMES.

How interesting! It sounds like you are saying that "the last days" began in the days of Jesus and His Disciples, right?

Yes! Yes, and its very interesting because also in Phillipians 4:5 that, "the Lord is at hand." And so, why go to ays to all the people in that day, in that day back there, that the Lord is going to come when one has to wait 2,000 years? That does not have meaning, it does not make sense. It also says that it "is ready to vanish away" in Hebrews 8:13. And there are many verses, many that say that He was to come during the time of the Disciples, not our times.

Yes, how interesting.

And for you? What happened? For you ... well, how did it happen with you?

Well, when I came to Christ at the beginning, I came to realize that the words I liked most of the words of Jesus were words like these in John 14:21-23

21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."

22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?"

23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

NKJV

To me, this is the very heart of the Gospel - which I learned by quietly reading the New Testament like a novel at home. When it simply became easier to believe that Jesus, the Son of God, really did walk the Earth and live among us, saying these words and working miracles -miracles that healed me of ulcers- than to keep trying to think that it was all made up, I chose to follow Christ. I made an adult decision to live a life of obedience to Christ, and this sense of His nearness in real friendship, and of God's embrace as my Father -Jesus and God living with me- meant everything to me. It still does. This, in fact, is what most Christians everywhere rejoice in so greatly - personally walking with God, accepted in Jesus Christ, God's Chosen Person. And my eyes were made alive and opened to see the marvels of Nature all around me. To hear the birds chirp again. And to look over all of God's Creation and see that it is, as He saw it, "very good."

So it seemed from the beginning to me something contrived, something contrary to my most personal first experiences with God that He should be described as far away, ever waiting to draw near to men, to wage vengeance upon a fear-darkened Earth and its inhabitants, still unchanged after over 19 centuries of the Cross' power. What a disconnect between the glories of Bible-inspired Salvation and the dark, fearful pessimism of religious men, men too busy copying eachother's answers than to study their Bibles for themselves, doing their own homework, and learning from God Himself to pass the tests of life. Perhaps such dark pessimism is the judgment upon cheaters. But all the while there would come reports from near and far, recent and throughout history, of how people were personally visited by the Lord Jesus -and not just in a dream- in person, in their hospital room, in their house, before a Bible conference, etc. Many little hints like this had me guessing from the beginning of my walk with Christ that He has been living here among us for a very long time. Just like people would say, "A personal relationship with Jesus." The only way to have "a personal relationship" with someone is if they are close by and very accessible -hardly describing a situation with someone overseas or far above the skies. How else can you have "a walk with Jesus" unless He's actually walking the Earth along with you, as well?

Just like a song we sing in English,

"He walks with me,

and He talks with me,

and He tells me I am His own..."

So, well, it seemed natural to me, really, inspired from the very text of the Bible, that Jesus is among us, and He lives with us, not from far away.

Fine, I would like to mention another passage of Scripture, but I want to give room to you, as well.

Well, I'm agreed in everything, because its very interesting how the people these days are always saying that you have to ask Christ so that He would come into your heart, but then they are then not agreed that He is yes, actually in the heart. There are many people, and I remember before, that I was like this as well. But they are saying one thing while believing something else.

Exactly. Its like they rejoice over experiences in the Christian life that are not in agreement with their own theology.

Yes, yes it's true. And its very interesting because I did not realize that I was thinking this way, too. So then, what you are saying is true, He is here living among us. And if we are asking Him that He should come back while saying that He is in my heart... I can say, I have said so many times, that well, Jesus lives in my heart but, I was believing that He was going to come another time, but how is he going to be in another place and also inside my heart?

Its a contradiction.

Exactly, exactly. Its very interesting the beliefs of the people. And I was one of those persons. I'm am not saying they are bad or any like that, nothing more that I now understand that Christ already had His victory, and He is already here with me, and with us all, living within His Church.

Yes. And its something that confirms our Faith, when our experiences from our lives with Christ confirm our studies with the Bible. That when these are in agreement, our faith grows stronger but when they are in, like, contradiction: that we are rejoicing over daily life experiences with Christ that are not what our understanding of the Bible should predict -and there is a disconnect- then enters a little bit of confusion.

Well, I would like to read a passage from the Scriptures that deal with this, if you like.

That's fine.

I would read my One-Year Bible and come across many passages like here in Daniel 2:31-45 where Daniel is interpreting the dream of Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar:

31 "You, O king, were watching; and behold, a great image! This great image, whose splendor was excellent, stood before you; and its form was awesome.

32 This image's head was of fine gold,

its chest and arms of silver,

its belly and thighs of bronze,

33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. 34 You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

36 "This is the dream. Now we will tell the interpretation of it before the king. 37 You, O king, are a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength, and glory; 38 and wherever the children of men dwell, or the beasts of the field and the birds of the heaven, He has given them into your hand, and has made you ruler over them all -

[Okay, Daniel now begins to interpret the dream]

you are this head of gold.

39 But after you shall arise another kingdom inferior to yours;

then another, a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth.

40 And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces and crush all the others. 41 Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile. 43 As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay,[They are still talking about the 4th kingdom, not a 5th kingdom, they are still just desribing the 4th kingdom] they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay. 44 [And this is key] And in the days of these kings [they are still talking aobut the days of the 4th kingdom] the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. [The Kingdom of God remains forever]. 45 Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold - the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this. [After this dream].

The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure."

NKJV

Well, if you have a bit of time, I would like to explain this out a little bit, if you like.

Yes, we have a little bit of time.

Well then, Daniel's interpretation of King Nebuchadnezzer'svision plainly tells us when Christ's Kingdom -and you can't have a kingdom without a king- comes in the days of "the 4th kingdom," -the 4th & last pagan kingdom to rule over God's People- which has always been identified as the Roman Empire. Daniel does NOT mention a "5th Kingdom" as though the feet&toes mixed with clay are separate from the legs of iron. This is how everybody around John th Baptist and Jesus knew that God's Kingdom was about to show up any day, because they recognised the Roman Empire's rule over them represented the 4th kingdom/empire -said rule began over them in 63bc with the conquest of Judea by the Roman General Pompey.

And as Daniel recounted, "34 You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth."

That mountain is the Kingdom of God that remains forever.

Good. Exactly. And it does not say that there would be some span of 2,000 years that we have to wait through...

No! No!

...That there is a time in which there is nothing.

Exactly! Because within 100 years from the beginning of the 4th kingdom's reign over the People of God, the biblical Jews, Jesus gives to one of His Disciples the name, "Peter," that means "stone," to him who previously had been called, "Simon." And He also says, "upon this rock I will build My Church." The Church is the Kingdom of God, of Christ, "the stone that grows to become a great mountain that fills the whole earth ... which shall never be destroyed ... nor be left to other people ..., but it shall stand forever."

Well, I would like to read this little bit from Matthew and then turn it over to you, if you like.

Good, that's okay.

Matthew 16:13-20 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?"

14 So they said,"Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."

15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"

16 Simon Peter answered and said,"You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter ["stone"], andon this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." 20 Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.

NKJV

Okay, well, this rock, this stone of the vision of Daniel and this rock upon which is built the Church of Christ -and this occurring during the 4th kingdom that Daniel mentioned- well we are certain that that stone that grew to become a mountain, according to the vision of Daniel, is nothing else than the Gospel, the Church of Christ, is the same rock of which Daniel speaks, the rock that grows into a great mountain that fills the whole Earth is the Gospel, the Church of Christ, the Kingdom of God.

Exactly. And its very interesting that, this that we are saying, that everything that is written is true, everything, everything in truth, and everything happened as the writers of the Bible have said.

Exactly.

At the time that is explained there. And we are not looking for some antichrist that is going to come; and that there is going to be people flying in the air; and later those that are going to be here are going to have Tribulation. As, like, there are books that have this story that have everyone with fear about what is going to happen right now...

Exactly. The Gospel has to be "Good News," not news that brings fear and confusion.

Exactly. And we can see from the words that you have just read, that you have just shared with us, we can see that everything that is said in The Word is truth. We cannot say that, we cannot put nothing of ourselves in The Word. Everything is there. And we need to take care to only read what is written there.

Yes. And I am going to supposed that you get excited so much about this Preterist perspective for these reasons, right?

Oh, yes. Its that I know that the victory of Christ is already, I already know that He has won, and that everything that He said was going to happen, happened when He said it was going to happen.

Exactly. And you are saying that the cataclysms, and all that about the Antichrist, all that has happened in the past already, right? During the very same generation that saw Jesus minister and then leave also were the very same who saw His Return and all of the Tribulation that preceeded that Return, as well, right?

Exactly. And I not have fear of the future. I already know that everything that was going to happen is already fulfilled. Everything makes sense if this Scripture is fulfilled in the 1st century, when the Temple fell, that was a symbol of the Old Covenant of God.

Exactly. Well, for that same reason it excites me, as well. Its that this view that everything has already been fulfilled in the past, has the effect of filling us with much needed optimism and confidence towards the future when we realize that there remains no Bible-mandated cataclysm dooming our best efforts to futility. It was this kind of optimism and confidence and energy that overcame every giant obstacle and carried men to the moon. With this kind of optimism and confidence we can invigorate our efforts to overcome every giant obstacle to make the world a better place, and bless our children and their children, our home countries, our hometowns. There is no glass ceiling hanging our Mankind's head preventing him from progressing forward into better times ahead. There is no end, no limits, no boundaries to human potential except those caused by our own ignorance & disobedience. Tommorrow is a blank page waiting to be written between God & us.

Exactly. And the most important thing is that we already know that the New Temple is already among us right now. And we are with Christ already.

Yes. Yes, and God has invited us to co-author with Jesus -The Word- the great story of Humanity. Tommorrow is strictly determined by what we do with Jesus Christ today - not by fatalistic judgments upon previous generations - generations long since buried. We Christians get to be the Caleb's, the great, optimistic, hope-giving, visionary leaders among every generation, declaring before the daunting, giant obstacles of our times, "Let us go up at once and take the Land, for we are well able to overcome them!" (Numbers 13:30).

Exaclty. How good! How marvelous is the Lord. Well, we have just used up the time, and I understand that you have a website that you can share with us, so that people who want to study this perspective of Preterism, so they can visit and find other links that take them to other sites that have information in Spanish.

Yes, yes. For more information, one can visit the site on the Internet www.jerusalencelestial.com and on the right side one can click on the words that say "En Español - La Jerusal

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Starbucks conversation between Preterists

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